This week on our Industry Leader's podcast, we spoke to Rohan Blacker, Founder of Pooky and formerly of sofa.com. This is a fantastic episode full of insights and anecdotes on starting DTC businesses.
We talk about starting a business in digital's early days, how to stand out now and getting the customer message right. Plus, Rohan shares why he went from solicitor to entrepreneur, 'enjoyable failures', his best piece of advice and lots more.
Listen to the full episode below:
Or if you prefer, you can read the transcript:
Sorcha O’Boyle: On the show with me this week is Rohan Blacker formerly of Sofa.com and now heading up Pooky, the brilliant little Lighting Brand that’s all about creating lights that look like they cost a fortune – but don’t. Rohan is great to have you here, I love Pooky and I’ve so much to ask you about, you know, creating businesses and nurturing them from start up to established brand, but before we get into all of that, how’s it going? How are you doing?
Rohan Blacker: I’m doing alright, well it’s the day after a long bank holiday so it was a busy time and a long lunch yesterday, but I’m feeling, I’m recovering okay today and it’s nice to see you and thanks for having me.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Oh no, it’s absolutely my pleasure to have you here, long lunch or no long lunch. So before we dig into Pooky, because there’s so much I want to ask you about that. Can you kind of bring us back to the early days of your career and your route into retail because it’s fair to say that you didn’t have what you’d call the traditional career trajectory. So, what happened and where did you end up where you are?
Rohan Blacker: Years and years ago, I was a solicitor. Well, I trained as a barrister, I decided that I was going to be a crappy barrister, so I went off to be a solicitor instead and I ended up helping people divorce and I did that for a couple of years. Strangely enough I did quite enjoy that, but I equally realised I was going to be a mediocre solicitor. I don’t know, I got itchy feet and I realised also that if I was going to make the jump, I’d have to make the jump earlier, rather than later. Amazingly I remember they gave me three or four pay rises over a short period of time. I felt the talons going deep into my shoulders and I thought, “If I don’t jump now, it’s going to be difficult.” So, I guess the training was pretty helpful, I’m very grateful for that and then I doodled around in all sorts of businesses, mainly catering based. I don’t know if you call catering retail. It basically is, you know, getting something, you’re trying to make something taste nice and look beautiful and sell it and I got involved in a restaurant with a few other guys and then I did event catering. And, I mean it was fun they were brilliant, brilliant times and I learned a lot about what not to do, I’ve learned a few things about what to do and then my first sort of grown-up business, I guess you might call it, came when I was about – actually I can’t remember how old I was – but I know it was in about 1995 and we set up a business called Deliverance, not Deliveroo, I hasten to add. Deliverance was a, was a food delivery business. We had our own kitchens, we cooked a huge amount of different types of food. Thai food, Chinese, Indian, Pizza, Sushi, Salads. It was sort of amazing, we bit off far more than we reasonably could chew. It was ludicrously optimistic, but we wanted to shake up London food delivery because it looked as though it was shakeable-upable and actually in our own small way we did and when we sold the business about seven years later, we had about just over 100 motorbikes burning around London, operating out of three kitchens. Back in those days the web didn’t really exist, so we took our orders through a call centre or indeed on those funny old things called fax machines. It was a hugely complicated business. As I said, we had 100 mopeds, we also had our own garage with three mechanics so in terms of vertical integration, it was about as vertically integrated as any place could be. But it was fun, and it was complicated. We worked ridiculously long hours. We sort of did make a success of it and we got to a point where we were able to sell it seven years later, and I was very, very proud of it and had a huge amount of fun. So that was sort of retail and then having done that we – when I say we, I talk about my old business partner Pat Reeves, sadly who died a few years back – he was my partner in crime for many, many, years actually through quite a number of businesses and there are a number of other business which we tried and couldn’t get to work. So, it’s not just one long litany of success, it’s punctuated with lots and lots of enjoyable failure as well, which are almost more important than the peaks. But then after a while having sort of scratched our heads, we decided that homewares and sofas was the direction we should go in. Again, we never had any long-term ambition to become interior designers or homeware, you know, but it just-, the web was now alive. We’re now in 2005. In 2001 there was a big flurry about the web and then everything crashed and then, gradually things began to settle down and by about 2005 there were a reasonable number of people being able to do a certain amount of business online and we thought we would put sofas online. So that’s really how and why we ended up doing what we were doing. There’s a lot more sort of reasoning behind it. It just felt that the time was right to try and jump onto the web because it looked exciting and we did it through the medium of, strangely enough, sofas.
Sorcha O’Boyle: I mean as you do. But can you tell me what was the world of ecommerce like back in 2005 versus how it was when you started Pooky?
Rohan Blacker: It’s only, what is it? 17 years ago, but it’s almost as though it might have been 19th Century. It was entirely different. For a start there were far less people doing it, so it was miles less crowded. So, it was much easier to make a noise and much easier to be heard. I mean the number of people who were actually trying to sell sofas online you could count on, well almost no one. Quite a few people had websites, but they weren’t ecommerce enabled. So, I remember DFS actually did have a website and they tried to make it ecommerce enabled but it was one of those really early ones, so you would press the buy button, but before you pressed the buy button there was a sort of drop down going how many do you want and it would go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 50, 100. So they just hadn’t thought it through at all. And in terms of ecommerce marketing, we discovered there were this thing called pay-per-click and it was absolutely in its infancy, and it was very cheap back then. So in order to get our brand and our business in front of people, you know, we actually had to pay Google. I seem to remember we were paying something like, for the sort of head turn clicks, we were paying about 10p a click. I mean today for the similar clicks you’d be paying way over a quid. Of course, in those days the people who were bothering to search for the, you know, sofa or sofa bed or whatever it may be online, were sort of slightly web savvy people, so arguably the clicks had much more impact, and they were, very, very, cheap. This was just purely very lucky. Yes there probably were agencies who did it, but there weren’t that many, you know. The world is now littered with agencies who offer pay-per-click services through, you know, whether it’s on Google or whether it’s on Facebook, all the various media available. Obviously, Facebook didn’t exist then, I think Facebook kicked off in 2006 itself, so social media didn’t exist, so there were very few tools, but Google pay-per-click was one and it was in it’s infancy and it was very cheap, so it was a totally different world.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And can you tell me how you ended up with the name Sofa.com, because I think there’s quite a good story there and I’d like to hear it.
Rohan Blacker: Well, there is a story actually, Pat and myself decided that if we were going to go to the world of Sofa’s we did not want to call it Patro Sofa Emporium [00:06:27]. We wanted a decent name, and it was Pat who tapped in Sofa.com into his URL bar, and he was directed to a shop in Wisconsin they sold leather sofas, they’re called Dynason’s [00:06:36] I should go and find out if Dynasons are still around and they were obviously not utilising the URL Sofa.com because it just went to Dynasons Furniture. So, we thought, “Well if they’re not using it then they might be up for selling it.” So we both played poker back then and one of the words in poker is “If you’ve got the nuts hand.” So if you’ve got the nuts it means you’ve got the very best hand available. As we described it, we wanted the nuts name for our sofa company. We concluded that the nut’s name was Sofa.com. Anyway, so we called them up and someone answered the phone and we put it to them that we were interested to buy Sofa.com and the guy goes, “Well you know, like not technically for sale, but everything’s got a price and if you’d like to send an offer through… blah, blah, blah.” And so, we thought about it. So, we did send an offer through. We got Sofa.com valued by one of these agencies, who value these, and I think they valued it at £4000 or something. So, we got back and said “Look, we’re going to value it, not at £4000, we’re going to actually offer you £8000, so, here’s the offer, £8000.” And they came back and said “We were more interested in a million quid.” Anyway, thus followed about four or five months of negotiation and we ended up on $200,000 and back then you could get $2 to the pound, very different to what you could, so it was £100,000. We agreed on £100,000 and we then going to go over to America to sign the deal with some lawyers and then on the way to America, this guy called up and said, “Do you think you can pay in cash?” It was like “No. Why would we pay in cash?” Alarm bells didn’t really ring, but it was strange that, you know, that was just one of the requests. Anyway, we said “No we’re not going to pay in cash; we’ll pay it by Bank Transfer. Anyway we did pay by Bank Transfer, we went through a sort of reputable firm of lawyers in New York and ultimately what happened is that the details, the bank details on that contract, where the bank details of this guy at Dynasons Furniture, who was not the owner of Dynasons Furniture. I think he may have been a Director, but he was not really in a position to sell this URL at all. Dynasons Furniture was owned by some aged lady who probably didn’t realise she had it. I mean the exact details escape me. Anyway, the long and short of it was he was not entitled to sell it. He got his $200,000, the moment he got his $200,000 he skipped off to South America with his girlfriend.
Sorcha O’Boyle: What a Cowboy!
Rohan Blacker: Yeah. We skipped back to the UK with Sofa.com and started our business the URL only to be told about three or four months later, that there was a problem and we thought “Oh my God! Can you believe it?” Anyway, the contract was deemed to be completely fair, it was done in good faith, and we were able to keep the URL. The poor guy with his girlfriend and 200,000 bucks was apprehended amazingly in South America and escorted back to a prison cell in America. I don’t know how much time he did, but he did do a bit of time.
Sorcha O’Boyle: That’s wild.
Rohan Blacker: It was a strange process by which we came, came in charge of it. But it was a good thing to have, you know, we were lucky, and I understand that Sofa.com the URL, was one of the first ever, it was registered in early nineties, allegedly before Sex.com.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Really?
Rohan Blacker: It was really one of the great URL’s that people wanted.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yes, that’s a great story. I mean I always love the story with the brand name, but that’s I think one of the best ones I’ve ever heard. It’s brilliant. So, tell me a little bit about Pooky. What is it? How would you describe it? Who do you design for? What’s the story?
Rohan Blacker: When we set up the business and when I say we, it was, sadly Pat had died by this stage, so it was me really. We were sort of following a model I guess which we had done at Sofa.com. I loved lighting and I always felt that, you know, it would be a fun business to do. I knew pretty much nothing about it, but I knew that in the market there were a number of very high-end companies that sold beautiful lighting, but they cost, you know, you needed a mortgage to buy them. And then there was a whole load of lighting operators selling super cheap stuff, probably imported from China – not that that’s necessarily a bad thing – but you know, really, really, budget lighting. And there wasn’t a huge amount in the mid-market. There was obviously lots of homeware firms selling a whole wide range of homewares but there were very few actual dedicated specialists who just, just, sold lighting. So we went in there in order to, I guess, put our stake down in very much in the middle market. But trying to sell – as you said in your intro – trying to sell beautiful lighting for not a ridiculous amount of money. For hopefully, I mean I’m not saying we’re affordable to everybody, because we’re not and I completely understand that, but we’re trying to create something beautiful that will stand the test of time, that will last a long time, that won’t become tomorrows landfill, and hopefully will be there in many years’ time, which is not cripplingly expensive. And through the medium of the web and buying direct and selling direct, these sort of things are possible. And as I said we knew basically nothing about lighting when we kicked off. Our first range was, I mean it was okay, but we’ve got a lot better. It’s been an incredible amount of fun learning about it over the years and you become more and more obsessive and nerdy and, you know, I can’t watch a TV show or a film nowadays without sort of basically watching the lighting in the background. And that’s, we all suffer from that.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, and tell me how involved are you in the design side of Pooky?
Rohan Blacker: Very. I’m very involved. So, Jo Plant is sort of in charge and I get pretty involved. And we’re constantly looking at things and designing things and sketching stuff up and working on CAD’s [00:11:31] and I’m heavily involved in that, you know. None of us have any qualifications to be doing this, but, well I think the qualification is a sort of passion and an obsession and just a sort of sense of colour and creative flair of some sort.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, absolutely and it must be so rewarding for you to see your lights out and about in the real world.
Rohan Blacker: Oh, it’s really rewarding and it’s incredibly exciting launching things. Honestly you have no idea, you know. I mean our hit rate is a bit better than it used to be, but obviously we’ve launched a whole load of things and we look at them and go, “That, now that, that, is a beautiful light. This is going to go crazy.” And then no one buys it! And you think “What the hells going on? Where are they all?” And there are a few lights we have, which I genuinely think are works of beauty which – and I’m not doing ourselves down because we sell a lot of lighting, we’ve had a lot of hits – but really beautiful lights and I will not discontinue them, because I believe they are beautiful, it’s just that not that many people agree with me. But we buy in reasonable volume in order to keep the prices down, la de dah de dah. So, every new launch is a gamble. You know it arrives in the warehouse, you look at it, you check it, you’re happy with it, you’ve done the photography and you’re ready to go and you press launch and you just see what the hell happens and sometimes they go crazy and sometimes they just don’t. We’ve just launched a range of lights with William Morris & Co.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yes, I saw that.
Rohan Blacker: That’s different because William Morris is, there a sort of slightly modernist tweak on William Morris, so you feel much more confident when you’ve got the William Morris brand behind you, but when we’re just doing stuff by our little old selves, then it’s different. It’s rewarding when it works, it’s thrilling.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And when you look back, what do you think is your favourite piece that you’ve ever created?
Rohan Blacker: I tell you what, in a way the range of lights that I’m most happy with and I know this is slightly fudging the question, but I didn’t even know about wall lights a few years back and what we do is, we’ve got a very large range of wall lights, wall light fittings and people are able to combine them with a huge range of shades, a real mix and match, to the point that, well I’m not saying no two people will ever have the same thing, but people can very much design their own way through it. So we’ve probably got about 50 or 60 different wall fittings, made out of brass and wood and God knows what. And I think that’s been quite innovative actually, we do sell an awful lot of them, and I think they’re beautiful. I think in doing that I think we’ve changed the market a bit. I think we’ve been partly responsible for bringing the wall light back into Vogue. I’m proud of that. Another thing actually is we’ve gone fairly heavily into rechargeable lighting.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Ah, okay.
Rohan Blacker: When I say rechargeable, so they’re battery powered and you re-charge them and again the only reason why we light our homes the way we do is because we’ve always had to be near an electric source. So, lighting has always been to the perimeter of the wall or hanging out the ceiling or a wall light, so you can get near electricity. Whereas these rechargeable lights you can put them anywhere. You can bung them in the middle of the room, you can put them on a side table, you can bung them on Dining Room table, and so I’m pretty proud of those actually because again, it’s not to say that there aren’t rechargeable lights out there, but our ones are a bit different. Again, you’ve got your choice of shades, you can make it your own. So, I’m proud of those. I get a lot of feedback saying how much they’ve made peoples lives better.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Lovely, yeah, I mean actually they did jump out at me when I was looking through your website earlier, they are really, really beautiful. And that’s something actually that’s a bit of a recurring theme with stuff that you’ve done. Where you start a business that’s quite niche, you know, with kind of a fairly laser focus on one product or one area, but you do things slightly differently to everybody else. You know whether that’s it with your wall lights or making things particularly beautiful and so on. But if you look back, do you think that there’s a common thread or a common approach that has served you well, with starting off your businesses.
Rohan Blacker: This is going to be so hard doing myself down. Common approach in a way is actually going into businesses about which I knew nothing. I mean I haven’t been working in the lighting industry for 23 years and I hadn’t been selling sofas for 9 years before that and actually when we went into food delivery, I’d never really been in the, well I had been in the food industry, but I’d certainly never done food delivery. So, what I’m saying is it’s a fresh approach. You’re not inculcated with the idea that, you know, this is the way that you do this within this industry. And actually, a number of people when I started up various businesses said, “You can’t go that way; that’s not the way we do it. The lighting industry works in an entirely different way and you’re going to get that terribly wrong if you do that.” And of course, we’ve made vast numbers of mistakes as well but with a bit of original thinking and I guess addressing the problem in a different way. I mean Sofa.com was pretty radically different actually, not just because we were trying to flog sofas online, but because the whole way we did it and we were also trying to sell really nice sofas again for not very much money or for comparatively little money. You know knowing also that sofas where, you know they always talk about, you know, the most important purchase in your life, you know, the house, the car and then allegedly the sofa. It’s a very significant purchase, but we did it in a way that no one else was doing it, which was online. Yes, we had a showroom, but our showroom was a very different type of showroom, it was on the third floor of our building, so it was not at all Hight Street. But because it was a low rent showroom, if people were prepared to make the journey to our showroom, they were probably quite serious about buying one of our sofas. So, we created these super, wonderful, fun, showrooms where there were kids, I mean it’s sort of commonplace nowadays, you know, when I say they were experiential. But back then in 2005 these experiential showrooms didn’t exist. We had video games for the dads who might be bored – it sounds very sexist – or you had play areas for the kids. We gave people drinks and teas and coffees and cakes and we made it fun. Every other showroom, sofa showroom in the country was pretty damn turgid and actually when you walked in you were accosted by an extremely pushy salesman who wouldn’t let go of you until you had written your cheque for £1500, that was not our policy at all. We wanted people to have a good time and to make their own decision and to some degree we did, you know, Deliverance the food delivery business, that was an entirely new business and Pooky is, you know, we used the same sort of ideology at Pooky, you know, fresh thinking.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And you touched on it earlier that Pooky is the first time more or less that you have started up a business by yourself and not with Pat. Could you tell me how that’s been for you? Has it been different? Has it changed how you’ve approached the business?
Rohan Blacker: Yeah, it’s definitely been different. I have a, well a different sort of business partner to Pat and Tim who has been the CEO really of the business since it started, and Tim’s been a brilliant support the whole way through. But our relationship, Pat and myself, we launched probably ten or so businesses together. We were resolutely 50/50 the whole way, irrespective of who put more money in or who did more work, we were very much a partnership, you know. It was a very close bond, and it was very sad when he went. But setting up Pooky, yeah it has been different and actually, I know this sounds a bit ridiculous, but I was quite nervous because I’d always worked with Pat, I’d had a couple of quite good successes with Pat and I thought to myself, “Perhaps I’m just going to be completely shown up now. What’s going to happen now is Pat dies, Rohan goes into business, throws a whole load of his own cash which he’s earnt over the course of his life into this business and then fails. And it will just simply look that Rohan was carried throughout his life by Pat.” And I know that sounds pathetic, but I sort of, so I was nervous, and I wanted to try to prove to myself and to any other naysayers that I could do it on my own. I know that sounds ridiculous but there is an element of truth in that. It took a while, you know, Sofa.com was an overnight success. We started making money immediately, literally our first month was profitable. Pooky was very different to that, because again, launched Sofa in 2005 and I mentioned what the environment was like back then and we launched Pooky in 2014. By 2014 the world, well the online world, was a totally different place and I mentioned the sort of the noise and the getting heard, getting your message out. Well getting your message out in 2022 is one thing but in 2014 it was very, very different. Social media was alive, there were businesses launching on an hourly basis and this High Street which in 2005 – when I say the High Street I mean the web High Street – and there were not that many brands operating on that High Street then. These days it’s the most busy High Street and the most noisy marketplace in the world. So, to get heard was difficult and it took a while. Pooky was not an overnight success like Sofa.com was. It took a while for it to bed out and yeah of course it’s been different not having Pat by my side, but as I said Tim’s been a brilliant, brilliant partner to have.
Sorcha O’Boyle: And how did you get Pooky off the ground? What was it that you had to do that, or you had to change?
Rohan Blacker: Well, getting the product right was incredibly important. Our first range was, well it was fine but there were some issues with them. I always say that if you can get the product right, then so long as you can let enough people know about it, they will come. It the products not right, you can, may as well all go home. So, there was a lot of work put into that and then it’s a marketing challenge. Everything else behind all that, the warehousing, the customer service, the service you give on the phone, all of that, that’s got to be perfect. There’s no excuses for getting that wrong. But somehow in this busy world you’ve got to get the message out there. So, it was a marketing challenge and in marketing in a very different world to the marketing that we had, and a branding challenge. You know, you’re asking people to spend quite a lot of money with you. I know I’ve said that we are mid-market, but we still expect people to spend £100 plus with us, which is, you know, it’s more than a packet of crisps. A lot more than a packet of crisps. It’s a lot less than a sofa, I acknowledge that, it’s still a significant purchase and people have got to believe in you and people have got to trust you and that’s a tricky thing on the web because they come across Pooky, what the hell is Pooky? What sort of name is Pooky? You know, etc. etc. And so, we all know that you don’t have long on a website to try and win people around. People have got very short attention spans, so you’ve to win their trust as quickly as you can. And I think, in a way, so what we did do we worked hard at the marketing, and we worked hard making the brand a trustworthy brand. We wanted people to believe that it was safe to spend their £100 with us. But sales, actually again what’s happened is, I’ve always believed it because sales have always edged in the right direction. We’ve never gone backwards and that again makes it a fun business to run because it’s always going forward.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yeah, even when you look at the website, because I think a lot of the time with ecommerce brands it’s hard to make them look solid, they can look a little bit kind of transparent or not, you know, like there isn’t a whole lot of substance there. But one thing that jumps out on your website in particular are the customer reviews. You know they just really jump off the page in terms of the customer experience and so on. Can you talk to me what is your approach to the customer experience? How do you make them feel special?
Rohan Blacker: You just get it right every time. You don’t tell lies. We all know the sort of mantra that happy customers will tell 2 people and an upset customer will tell 15 people but an upset customer whose been turned around will tell 100 people. It’s not just a focus on getting it right when it’s gone wrong. I mean obviously things do go wrong, you know, things arrive, and they’re broken. It’s sad, you know, as much as we try to sort the packaging out. It’s an extreme approach to customer service. We answer the phone as quickly as we possibly can. There’s a human on the end of the phone. When people send us emails, we try to respond to it as quickly as possible. We try to deliver things really fast. I mean you’re right that the feedback is, it’s mind-blowing. I feel super proud. You asked what makes me proud, that makes me proud. I love the fact that people like coming back to us and buying our lights and are happy with the lights we provide. It’s a totally devoted dedication to making sure that as many people at whatever touch point that they may, however they come to see us and we’ve got in the showroom again, wherever they meet us, we’ve going to do all we can to make sure they’re happy.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Brilliant. Well, if anyone is listening and they want to see how to do customer service really, really well, they need to go and look at Pooky. Can you tell me, I don’t know if we’re allowed to say post-pandemic but what does the post-pandemic world look like for the brand?
Rohan Blacker: Yeah, it’s a post-pandemic probably. The thing that, well everyone seems to be interested at the moment is the new inflationary world. The new world where raw materials cost so much more, where shipping things over the ocean costs so much more, where everything is going up in price and there are a lot of people deeply worried about that and rightly so. And of course, we’re selling a product which is, you know, discretionary. Over the course of the pandemic itself we were one of the very lucky companies that, you know, we were selling homewares on line, we were, I acknowledge how lucky we were to be in a pandemic friendly business, shall we say. But equally we suffered all the problems with delivery, we couldn’t get hold of stock, we nearly, very nearly ran out of stock, course I look back on it if we had had stock, how much could we have sold? Yes, a lot more. All that sort of thing has settled down a great deal. I think that the world is a very unstable place, there are wars raging, there’s lots of issues going on and particularly with this inflationary world. We’re lucky we’re still doing pretty well at Pooky, and people still appear to be buying. I mean I know there’s a lot of talk in the market, people are getting a little bit jumpy. You know, where’s the next sale coming from and I’m not saying it’s not going to hit us. I have no crystal ball, I just don’t know, but I think the next year or two are going to be challenging. I’m not prepared to look further than two years ahead, but I genuinely think they might be quite tricky.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Okay and what kind of advice would you give to other people, just from your experience? I know it’s like nobody can tell what’s going to come next but what would you do to insulate your brands against shocks like that?
Rohan Blacker: Well actually back on this whole thing about trust. I think if you entirely believe in what you’re doing yourself, I think it comes through, through the brand that you create. There are websites and companies where you read the stuff and you just think, “Hang on, that’s just marketing guff.” Please don’t try and, you know, the consumer is an intelligent being and gets more critical – and not getting any more intelligent – but they are thrown so many messages on a daily basis and I think collectively we’re pretty good at sifting out those people who are genuine and mean it and those companies which are just trying to sell you a fast buck and I think stick true to your word and let people understand the sincerity of your message without being, again, overly sincere is a bit annoying.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Yes. It is.
Rohan Blacker: Why do people do that? You know, remember there’s a light side to all of this, you know. Be true to yourself and others will realise there’s a genuine person behind that brand.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Brilliant. Well listen Rohan I’m going to wrap it up there. That was so interesting. It was great to talk to you, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Rohan Blacker: Thanks very much indeed. It was nice talking. Okay, well, until the next time.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Until next time. Okay, take care.
Rohan Blacker: Cheers, bye now.
Sorcha O’Boyle: Bye. That was Rohan Blacker, founder of Pooky. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the Industry Leaders podcast and don’t forget that you can catch up on all of our previous episodes, wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll be back again soon with more brilliant guests, but until then, from me Sorcha O’Boyle and the team of More2, take care and bye.